[3 : validation du sommaire 2e version. résultat : proposition validée]
Suite à la non-validation du sommaire proposé initialement, nous avons intégré plusieurs propositions d'amendements et nous vous soumettons cette nouvelle proposition au vote:
1) préambule: valeurs, droits et devoirs fondamentaux, communs
2) la relation à la nature
3) le citoyen
4) le législatif
5) l'exécutif
6) le judiciaire
7) la monnaie et la finance
8) la propriété et l'économie
9) la diplomatie, le domaine militaire et les relations extérieures
10) les médias
11) les collectivités locales
12) le contrôle constitutionnel
13) l'évolution de la constitution
anne-sophie chambost Sat 21 Jan 2017 3:00PM
je persiste, la nature n'a rien à faire dans une constitution, qui concerne le citoyen (et pas l'homme) dans la Cité. Qui trop embrasse mal étreint... à tout vouloir mettre dans votre constitution, elle n'atteindra pas son objectif qui devrait être de contenir les institutions.
Lapache Sat 21 Jan 2017 4:21PM
A trop vouloir être formaté ont se plante, et c'est ce qui c'est
passé avec la précédente constitution. d'autant plus qu'il ne
s'agit pas là d'embrasser large comme tu dis, mais juste de
prendre ce que nous sommes à la base. non pas des machines
pensantes mais des êtres vivants. Pour se faire respecter, il nous
faut respecter la vie qui nous fait exister. donc l'inclure dans
ce que nous avons de plus chère à préserver, c'est incontournable.
Le 21/01/2017 à 16:00, anne-sophie
chambost (Loomio) a écrit :
je persiste, la nature n'a rien à faire dans une constitution,
qui concerne le citoyen (et pas l'homme) dans la Cité. Qui trop
embrasse mal étreint… à tout vouloir mettre dans votre
constitution, elle n'atteindra pas son objectif qui devrait être
de contenir les institutions.
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pmorier Sat 21 Jan 2017 8:08PM
@annesophiechambost , "la relation à la nature" fait référence aux devoirs des citoyens non pas seulement entre eux, mais envers la nature: l'éco-système, les animaux, les végétaux, etc.
On en discutera le moment venu, mais il semble pertinent d'envisager un espace pour ces questions. Le placer dans une constitution permet de se garantir d'un gouvernant qui voudrait par sa politique mettre en danger la nature.
Quant aux médias, il ne s'agit pas de les nationaliser, mais de les penser comme un pouvoir, ce qu'ils sont. Avec tout ce que cela comporte d'abus possibles: comment éviter ces abus de pouvoir (conflit d'intérêts, concentration dans des trusts, propagande. Repenser un CSA plus démocratique, la facilitation de médias associatfs), voilà l'enjeu de cette partie.
anne-sophie chambost Sat 21 Jan 2017 8:31PM
cela relève pour moi de la loi, pas de la constitution
pmorier Sat 21 Jan 2017 8:11PM
@desvouas, ne pinailles-tu pour des mots ? Quelle différence majeure entre "domaine" et "fonction" ? Cela mérite-t-il de bloquer cette proposition juste pour cela ?
pmorier Sat 21 Jan 2017 8:13PM
@aureliacaillarec et @lauraB, la différence d'ordre des titres mérite-t-elle vraiment de bloquer cette proposition déjà amendée ?
Desvouas Sun 22 Jan 2017 10:01AM
Tout a fait ... dans un domaine il y règne en général un seigneur...pour une fonction l'analyse est impersonnelle, non idéologique, fonctionnelle, avec des processus et des procédures...En ce qui me concerne je suis un fervent défenseur de la Constituante car j'y vois la dernière chance d'y concevoir des institutions permettant une VRAIE pratique démocratique ... pour cela leurs constructions doivent être non idéologiques pour justement permettrent à toutes de s'exprimer. Pour atteindre cet objectif les mots décrivant les concepts ont une importance majeure, nous avons la chance d'avoir une langue avec une grande richesse sémantique, il serait idiot de ne pas s'en servir et de rester dans un flou, état qui dessert toujours le peuple...
Envoyé de mon iPad
Le 21 janv. 2017 à 21:11, pmorier (Loomio) a écrit :
pmorier vous a cité en discutant "EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version"
@desvouas, ne pinailles-tu pour des mots ? Quelle différence majeure entre “domaine” et “fonction” ? Cela mérite-t-il de bloquer cette proposition juste pour cela ?
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AUPETITGENDRE Sun 22 Jan 2017 10:10AM
Au point où nous en sommes, il faut trancher: jamais un plan ne pourra convenir à tous et ce n'est qu'à l'usage que l'on en verra les avantages et les limites. Rien ne nous empêche de corriger en cours de route. Un peu "d'agilité" ne nuit pas dans ce genre d'entreprise.
pmorier Sun 22 Jan 2017 1:46PM
@annesophiechambost , l'objet de la constitution, c'est, me semble-t-il de rendre certaines lois impossibles (inconstitutionnelles) car elles remettent en cause des choses trop importantes. Une loi peut se défaire à chaque nouvelle élection. Le respect de la nature n'est-il pas trop important et ne doit-il pas être mis à l'abri de telles éventualités ?
Lapache Sun 22 Jan 2017 2:18PM
Je pense qu'en aucun cas nous devons renier notre nature
profonde, car elle nous unit tous.
Le 22/01/2017 à 14:46, pmorier (Loomio)
a écrit :
@annesophiechambost , l'objet de la constitution, c'est, me
semble-t-il de rendre certaines lois impossibles
(inconstitutionnelles) car elles remettent en cause des choses
trop importantes. Une loi peut se défaire à chaque nouvelle
élection. Le respect de la nature n'est-il pas trop important et
ne doit-il pas être mis à l'abri de telles éventualités ?
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gousmi Mon 23 Jan 2017 6:56AM
totalement d'accord au final... la nature n'a pas de rapport avec la constitution.... constitutionnaliser la nature... sérieusement?
De : anne-sophie chambost (Loomio) notifications@framavox.org
Envoyé : samedi 21 janvier 2017 16:00
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
je persiste, la nature n'a rien à faire dans une constitution, qui concerne le citoyen (et pas l'homme) dans la Cité. Qui trop embrasse mal étreint… à tout vouloir mettre dans votre constitution, elle n'atteindra pas son objectif qui devrait être de contenir
les institutions.
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anne-sophie chambost Mon 23 Jan 2017 7:32AM
vous mettez sur le même plan le juridique et le philosophique. Pourquoi ne pas rester un peu réaliste et commencer par les institutions ? Bien cadrées par des principes et des règles forts, elles traiteront alors des sujets philosophiques qui vous occupent manifestement.
Lapache Mon 23 Jan 2017 9:11AM
je crois que tu fais un sérieux amalgame entre la vie et la
philo, mais la nature est une réalité incontournable, ce qui ne
sera pas à long terme le cas de l'économie par exemple.
Le 23/01/2017 à 08:32, anne-sophie
chambost (Loomio) a écrit :
vous mettez sur le même plan le juridique et le philosophique.
Pourquoi ne pas rester un peu réaliste et commencer par les
institutions ? Bien cadrées par des principes et des règles
forts, elles traiteront alors des sujets philosophiques qui vous
occupent manifestement.
—
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ludo nantes Mon 23 Jan 2017 8:13PM
Bonjour à tous, et à toutes,
Ok pour la validation.
Ludovic
----- Mail original -----
De: "Lapache (Loomio)"
À: ludovicjeanson@free.fr
Envoyé: Lundi 23 Janvier 2017 10:11:48
Objet: [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
je crois que tu fais un sérieux amalgame entre la vie et la
philo, mais la nature est une réalité incontournable, ce qui ne
sera pas à long terme le cas de l'économie par exemple.
Le 23/01/2017 à 08:32, anne-sophie
chambost (Loomio) a écrit :
vous mettez sur le même plan le juridique et le philosophique.
Pourquoi ne pas rester un peu réaliste et commencer par les
institutions ? Bien cadrées par des principes et des règles
forts, elles traiteront alors des sujets philosophiques qui vous
occupent manifestement.
—
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pmorier Wed 25 Jan 2017 4:12PM
@niko, il est évident pour nous que tant dans le domaine législatif, exécutif, judiciaire et tous les autres il faut des contrôles et des contre-pouvoirs ! c'est l'objet de ces chapitres que de les détailler justement. On ne va donc pas les mettre à part dans un chapitre séparé avec toutes les procédures de contrôle et les contre-pouvoirs !
Niko Thu 26 Jan 2017 10:40AM
Je n'ai pas dit qu'il fallait les mettres à part. Je signalais juste (sans m'énerver, ni en multipliant les phrases avec des !!!!) qu'il y avait la notion de contrôle pour la constitution... et qu'il ne fallait surtout pas l'oublier pour les autres pouvoirs. Si c'est évident pour vous.... tant mieux :-)
Le Floch Bruno Fri 27 Jan 2017 12:15PM
En effet...
De : pmorier (Loomio) notifications@framavox.org
Envoyé : mercredi 25 janvier 2017 17:12
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
@niko, il est évident pour nous que tant dans le domaine législatif, exécutif, judiciaire et tous les autres il faut des contrôles et des contre-pouvoirs ! c'est l'objet de ces chapitres que de les détailler justement. On ne va donc pas les mettre à part
dans un chapitre séparé avec toutes les procédures de contrôle et les contre-pouvoirs !
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pmorier Fri 27 Jan 2017 8:34PM
@niko, cette précision ne te fait pas changer ton vote ?
gousmi Sat 28 Jan 2017 7:45AM
Personnellement cette place de la nature dans la constitution fait que je suis de plus en plus contre....
De : pmorier (Loomio) notifications@framavox.org
Envoyé : vendredi 27 janvier 2017 21:34
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
@niko, cette précision ne te fait pas changer ton vote ?
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Lapache Sat 28 Jan 2017 10:43AM
Curieux cette engouement à renier ses racines
Le 28/01/2017 à 08:45, gousmi (Loomio)
a écrit :
Personnellement cette place de la nature dans la constitution
fait que je suis de plus en plus contre….
De : pmorier (Loomio)
Envoyé : vendredi 27 janvier 2017 21:34
À : gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
@niko, cette précision ne te fait pas changer ton vote ?
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Geneviève Leb Sat 28 Jan 2017 11:26AM
sur la question de la nature : l'intitulé dans le sommaire n'est peut-être pas le plus adéquat, pas grave à mon avis. Ce qui est important c'est qu'on se souvienne 1) que dans notre constitution actuelle on a depuis Chirac un "principe de précaution" qui est quand même un peu utile, la preuve, les libéraux veulent l'ôter pour le remplacer par un "principe d'innovation" (!!). 2) la constitution de l'Equateur "donne des droits" à la nature : de ne pas être polluée, d'avoir des réparations si dégâts... Cela me parait une très bonne chose.
Desvouas Sat 28 Jan 2017 11:44AM
Oui c'est vrai ...une humanité hors sol ... c'est touchant de naîveté...
Le 28 janvier 2017 à 11:43, Lapache (Loomio) a écrit :
Curieux cette engouement à renier ses racines
Le 28/01/2017 à 08:45, gousmi (Loomio)
a écrit :
Personnellement cette place de la nature dans la constitution
fait que je suis de plus en plus contre….
De : pmorier (Loomio)
Envoyé : vendredi 27 janvier 2017 21:34
À : gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
@niko, cette précision ne te fait pas changer ton vote ?
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Siegfried Sat 28 Jan 2017 3:07PM
" valeurs, droits et devoirs fondamentaux, communs " doivent faire l'objet d'un titre entier et de chapitres respectifs pour ne pas déborder sur le préambule qui doit se contenter de quelques lignes.
gousmi Mon 30 Jan 2017 6:54AM
renier ses racines? Je ne vois pas le rapport... Juste que Constitution: ensemble des textes fondamentaux qui établissent la forme d'un gouvernement, règlent les rapports entre gouvernants et gouvernés, et déterminent l'organisation des pouvoirs publics.
Juste donner aux mots leur vrai sens.
A moins que le gouvernement n'ait la forme d'un arbre, que les rapports se règlent autour d'un spif ou que les pouvoirs publics soient organisés en forêt je suis désolé mais voilà... donc la place de la nature n'est pas dans la constitution... la constitution
est un écrit politique, ça n'est pas une lubie ou un acte universel... modifier la ddhc en y intégrant la nature oui cela aurait du sens... dans une constitution pour un pays comme le notre, je ne vois pas non désolé
De : Lapache (Loomio) notifications@framavox.org
Envoyé : samedi 28 janvier 2017 11:44
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
Curieux cette engouement à renier ses racines
Le 28/01/2017 à 08:45, gousmi (Loomio)
a écrit :
Personnellement cette place de la nature dans la constitution
fait que je suis de plus en plus contre….
De : pmorier (Loomio)
Envoyé : vendredi 27 janvier 2017 21:34
À : gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
@niko, cette précision ne te fait pas changer ton vote ?
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gousmi Mon 30 Jan 2017 6:55AM
C'est effectivement touchant d'ignorance autour de ce qu'est une constitution et de ce que cela signifie...
De : Desvouas (Loomio) notifications@framavox.org
Envoyé : samedi 28 janvier 2017 12:44
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
Oui c'est vrai …une humanité hors sol … c'est touchant de naîveté…
Le 28 janvier 2017 à 11:43, Lapache (Loomio) a écrit :
Curieux cette engouement à renier ses racines
Le 28/01/2017 à 08:45, gousmi (Loomio)
a écrit :
Personnellement cette place de la nature dans la constitution
fait que je suis de plus en plus contre….
De : pmorier (Loomio)
Envoyé : vendredi 27 janvier 2017 21:34
À : gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) ) )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
@niko, cette précision ne te fait pas changer ton vote ?
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anne-sophie chambost Mon 30 Jan 2017 8:17AM
Comme je l'ai indiqué à quelques reprises déjà, je persiste moi aussi à penser que la nature ne relève pas d'une constitution.
Lapache Mon 30 Jan 2017 8:33AM
là, a ce point... peut-être faut consulter ? :-)
Le 30/01/2017 à 09:17, anne-sophie
chambost (Loomio) a écrit :
Comme je l'ai indiqué à quelques reprises déjà, je persiste moi
aussi à penser que la nature ne relève pas d'une constitution.
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anne-sophie chambost Mon 30 Jan 2017 8:47AM
étonnante votre remarque. La base d'un projet participatif n'est-elle pas d'admettre que tout le monde ne sera pas d'accord sur tout ? Vous semblez discréditer par principe les remarques de ceux qui n'adhèrent pas au fait que la nature devrait être au coeur de votre projet de constitution. Si tel est le cas, si l'ancrage, plus philosophique que juridique, sur la nature est tellement important, faites-en la base première de votre projet...et ceux qui considèrent que ce n'est pas le sujet iront jouer ailleurs. Ce que je m'apprête à faire.
ludo nantes Mon 30 Jan 2017 10:22AM
La Nature pour ma part n'a pas forcement ça place dans une constitution, mais surtout dans l’esprit commun pour le bien commun. Pour la Nature il faut faire de l'éducation populaire. un exemple faire comprendre que les mégots de cigarette ce mes dans une poubelle et non parterre. UN EXEMPLE
Ludovic
----- Mail original -----
De: "Siegfried (Loomio)"
À: ludovicjeanson@free.fr
Envoyé: Samedi 28 Janvier 2017 16:07:20
Objet: [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
“ valeurs, droits et devoirs fondamentaux, communs ” doivent faire l'objet d'un titre entier et de chapitres respectifs pour ne pas déborder sur le préambule qui doit se contenter de quelques lignes.
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Desvouas Mon 30 Jan 2017 10:29AM
J'ai vraiment beaucoup de mal avec cet outil...des pages et des pages à faire défiler ...difficile de trouver et suivre le fils de la discussion ...ça me saoule ...je préfère me retirer.
Lapache Mon 30 Jan 2017 2:04PM
ludo
S'il est une chose avant toutes les autres qui a sa place dans
une constitution, c'est bien la nature au contraire car nous en
sommes indissociable.
Le 30/01/2017 à 11:22, ludo nantes
(Loomio) a écrit :
La Nature pour ma part n'a pas forcement ça place dans une
constitution, mais surtout dans l’esprit commun pour le bien
commun. Pour la Nature il faut faire de l'éducation populaire.
un exemple faire comprendre que les mégots de cigarette ce mes
dans une poubelle et non parterre. UN EXEMPLE
Ludovic
—– Mail original —–
De: “Siegfried (Loomio)”
À: ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr )
Envoyé: Samedi 28 Janvier 2017 16:07:20
Objet: [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
“ valeurs, droits et devoirs fondamentaux, communs ” doivent
faire l'objet d'un titre entier et de chapitres respectifs pour
ne pas déborder sur le préambule qui doit se contenter de
quelques lignes.
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gousmi Tue 31 Jan 2017 7:04AM
Encore une fois la nature n'est pas constitutionnalisable (néologisme) et n'a pas à être dans une constitution. Dans la ddh admettons et même oui mais dans la constitution non... la constitution n'est pas un programme vertueux c'est un cadre institutionnel
et j'ai rappelé la définition plus haut qui montre clairement que la nature n'entre pas dans ce cadre... ou alors il faut également constitutionnaliser les rapports familiaux, amoureux ou amicaux puisque cela aussi est incontrolable. donc je vote non tant
que ce domaine de reflexion sera dans la constitution.
De : Lapache (Loomio) notifications@framavox.org
Envoyé : lundi 30 janvier 2017 15:04
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
ludo
S'il est une chose avant toutes les autres qui a sa place dans
une constitution, c'est bien la nature au contraire car nous en
sommes indissociable.
Le 30/01/2017 à 11:22, ludo nantes
(Loomio) a écrit :
La Nature pour ma part n'a pas forcement ça place dans une
constitution, mais surtout dans l’esprit commun pour le bien
commun. Pour la Nature il faut faire de l'éducation populaire.
un exemple faire comprendre que les mégots de cigarette ce mes
dans une poubelle et non parterre. UN EXEMPLE
Ludovic
—– Mail original —–
De: “Siegfried (Loomio)”
À: ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) )
Envoyé: Samedi 28 Janvier 2017 16:07:20
Objet: [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
“ valeurs, droits et devoirs fondamentaux, communs ” doivent
faire l'objet d'un titre entier et de chapitres respectifs pour
ne pas déborder sur le préambule qui doit se contenter de
quelques lignes.
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Lapache Tue 31 Jan 2017 4:08PM
Pourtant pas sorcier de ne pas vouloir refaire les même erreurs
que dans le passer. maintenant si tu penses appartenir à la
famille des machines, ou des robots, fais comme bon te semble.
Mais nous créons là quelque chose de nouveau, pas un reflet déjà
existant. et quoi que tu en dises, tu ne sera jamais indissociable
de la nature. c'est juste du bon sens.
merci
Le 31/01/2017 à 08:04, gousmi (Loomio)
a écrit :
Encore une fois la nature n'est pas constitutionnalisable
(néologisme) et n'a pas à être dans une constitution. Dans la
ddh admettons et même oui mais dans la constitution non… la
constitution n'est pas un programme vertueux c'est un cadre
institutionnel
et j'ai rappelé la définition plus haut qui montre clairement
que la nature n'entre pas dans ce cadre… ou alors il faut
également constitutionnaliser les rapports familiaux, amoureux
ou amicaux puisque cela aussi est incontrolable. donc je vote
non tant
que ce domaine de reflexion sera dans la constitution.
De : Lapache (Loomio)
Envoyé : lundi 30 janvier 2017 15:04
À : gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
ludo
S'il est une chose avant toutes les autres qui a sa place dans
une constitution, c'est bien la nature au contraire car nous en
sommes indissociable.
Le 30/01/2017 à 11:22, ludo nantes
(Loomio) a écrit :
La Nature pour ma part n'a pas forcement ça place dans une
constitution, mais surtout dans l’esprit commun pour le bien
commun. Pour la Nature il faut faire de l'éducation populaire.
un exemple faire comprendre que les mégots de cigarette ce mes
dans une poubelle et non parterre. UN EXEMPLE
Ludovic
—– Mail original —–
De: “Siegfried (Loomio)”
À: ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr )
( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr )
) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) )
Envoyé: Samedi 28 Janvier 2017 16:07:20
Objet: [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
“ valeurs, droits et devoirs fondamentaux, communs ” doivent
faire l'objet d'un titre entier et de chapitres respectifs pour
ne pas déborder sur le préambule qui doit se contenter de
quelques lignes.
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Le Floch Bruno Wed 1 Feb 2017 1:54AM
Bonjour, sans avoir fait math sup et si je peux me permettre, je pense qu'une constitution est faite pour protéger le peuple et que les lois sont faites pour vivre avec des règles. Donc je ne vois pas en quoi la nature serait menaçante pour le citoyen, pas
plus que les animaux... Vous chamailler pour des choses aussi peu importante est ridicule. Le bon sens et la raison doit prendre le dessus sur l'intolérance et les exigences de certains.
Voilà j'ai dit ce que j'en pensais aussi simplement que possible, car cela devient un peu fatiguant de voir que certain égos n'acceptes pas la raison et le bon sens !
Avec tout mon respect
Cordialement et merci
De : Lapache (Loomio) notifications@framavox.org
Envoyé : mardi 31 janvier 2017 17:08
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
Pourtant pas sorcier de ne pas vouloir refaire les même erreurs
que dans le passer. maintenant si tu penses appartenir à la
famille des machines, ou des robots, fais comme bon te semble.
Mais nous créons là quelque chose de nouveau, pas un reflet déjà
existant. et quoi que tu en dises, tu ne sera jamais indissociable
de la nature. c'est juste du bon sens.
merci
Le 31/01/2017 à 08:04, gousmi (Loomio)
a écrit :
Encore une fois la nature n'est pas constitutionnalisable
(néologisme) et n'a pas à être dans une constitution. Dans la
ddh admettons et même oui mais dans la constitution non… la
constitution n'est pas un programme vertueux c'est un cadre
institutionnel
et j'ai rappelé la définition plus haut qui montre clairement
que la nature n'entre pas dans ce cadre… ou alors il faut
également constitutionnaliser les rapports familiaux, amoureux
ou amicaux puisque cela aussi est incontrolable. donc je vote
non tant
que ce domaine de reflexion sera dans la constitution.
De : Lapache (Loomio)
Envoyé : lundi 30 janvier 2017 15:04
À : gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
ludo
S'il est une chose avant toutes les autres qui a sa place dans
une constitution, c'est bien la nature au contraire car nous en
sommes indissociable.
Le 30/01/2017 à 11:22, ludo nantes
(Loomio) a écrit :
La Nature pour ma part n'a pas forcement ça place dans une
constitution, mais surtout dans l’esprit commun pour le bien
commun. Pour la Nature il faut faire de l'éducation populaire.
un exemple faire comprendre que les mégots de cigarette ce mes
dans une poubelle et non parterre. UN EXEMPLE
Ludovic
—– Mail original —–
De: “Siegfried (Loomio)”
À: ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) )
( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) )
) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) ) )
Envoyé: Samedi 28 Janvier 2017 16:07:20
Objet: [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
“ valeurs, droits et devoirs fondamentaux, communs ” doivent
faire l'objet d'un titre entier et de chapitres respectifs pour
ne pas déborder sur le préambule qui doit se contenter de
quelques lignes.
—
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gousmi Thu 2 Feb 2017 6:52AM
Justement ne refaisons pas les mêmes erreurs et ne cherchons pas à légiférer sur tout tout le temps... D'une part je ne vois pas bien sur quoi et dans quel domaine la nature devrait être dans la constitution ou alors sous forme d'un article unique qui tendrait
à mettre en avant que la nature et l'écologie doivent impérativement entrer dans le cadre de réflexion de toute production mais c'est tout... vous voulez créer quelque chose de nouveau en commençant par la rédaction du préambule ce qui est totalement antinomique
et cet entêtement sur la nature me donne plutôt l'impression de volontés personnelles. Toutefois, à l'exception éventuelle de l'alinéa précédent je ne vois pas ce que l'on peut mettre d'autre dans une constitution concernant la nature. Il me semble plutôt
qu'il s'agisse d'une volonté liberticide d’interférer dans la vie de tout à chacun... Mais proposez, pourquoi pas... par contre je maintiens que nombre de propositions seront d'une sectaire et deux législatives et non constitutionnelles....
Toutefois on peut considérer que l'on souhaite proposer un nouveau paradigme auquel cas je m'oppose totalement à la rédaction d'un préambule comme préalable à la rédaction d'une constitution parce que ça c'est clairement refaire les mêmes erreurs du passé
ce qui nous entraîne vers cette dérive de la propriété spéculative.
Enfin et pour conclure, ce n'est pas parce que vous avez décidé quelque chose qu'il s'agit de bon sens. Le bon sens paysan serait justement de laisser la nature faire sans vouloir la contrôler à outrance et légiférer dessus comme si nous avions le moindre
pouvoir sur elle.
De : Lapache (Loomio) notifications@framavox.org
Envoyé : mardi 31 janvier 2017 17:08
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
Pourtant pas sorcier de ne pas vouloir refaire les même erreurs
que dans le passer. maintenant si tu penses appartenir à la
famille des machines, ou des robots, fais comme bon te semble.
Mais nous créons là quelque chose de nouveau, pas un reflet déjà
existant. et quoi que tu en dises, tu ne sera jamais indissociable
de la nature. c'est juste du bon sens.
merci
Le 31/01/2017 à 08:04, gousmi (Loomio)
a écrit :
Encore une fois la nature n'est pas constitutionnalisable
(néologisme) et n'a pas à être dans une constitution. Dans la
ddh admettons et même oui mais dans la constitution non… la
constitution n'est pas un programme vertueux c'est un cadre
institutionnel
et j'ai rappelé la définition plus haut qui montre clairement
que la nature n'entre pas dans ce cadre… ou alors il faut
également constitutionnaliser les rapports familiaux, amoureux
ou amicaux puisque cela aussi est incontrolable. donc je vote
non tant
que ce domaine de reflexion sera dans la constitution.
De : Lapache (Loomio)
Envoyé : lundi 30 janvier 2017 15:04
À : gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
ludo
S'il est une chose avant toutes les autres qui a sa place dans
une constitution, c'est bien la nature au contraire car nous en
sommes indissociable.
Le 30/01/2017 à 11:22, ludo nantes
(Loomio) a écrit :
La Nature pour ma part n'a pas forcement ça place dans une
constitution, mais surtout dans l’esprit commun pour le bien
commun. Pour la Nature il faut faire de l'éducation populaire.
un exemple faire comprendre que les mégots de cigarette ce mes
dans une poubelle et non parterre. UN EXEMPLE
Ludovic
—– Mail original —–
De: “Siegfried (Loomio)”
À: ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) )
( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) )
) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) ) )
Envoyé: Samedi 28 Janvier 2017 16:07:20
Objet: [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
“ valeurs, droits et devoirs fondamentaux, communs ” doivent
faire l'objet d'un titre entier et de chapitres respectifs pour
ne pas déborder sur le préambule qui doit se contenter de
quelques lignes.
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gousmi Thu 2 Feb 2017 6:58AM
Je n'ai jamais parlé de menace... je dis juste que vouloir constitutionnaliser une chose sur laquelle nous n'avons aucun pouvoir me parait délirant. d'autre part je ne vois pas de chamailleries juste une discussion, un échange sur 2 avis opposés, ce qui
risque d'être très très fréquemment le cas dans le cadre de la rédaction éventuelle d'une constitution. Et je suis d'accord, le bon sens et la raison doivent prendre le dessus sur l'intolérance et les exigences de certains. N'ayant aucune exigences puisque
je ne propose pas de mettre la nature dans la constitution je ne me sens pas attaqué. Effectivement la raison serait de ne pas vouloir légiférer sur quelque chose qu'on ne peut contrôler. Que l'on décrète que le respect de la faune et de la flore doit toujours
constituer une priorité cognitive aux actes politiques je ne suis pas contre...... tout le reste est ou serait liberticide.
De : Le Floch Bruno (Loomio) notifications@framavox.org
Envoyé : mercredi 1 février 2017 02:55
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
Bonjour, sans avoir fait math sup et si je peux me permettre, je pense qu'une constitution est faite pour protéger le peuple et que les lois sont faites pour vivre avec des règles. Donc je ne vois pas en quoi la nature serait menaçante pour le citoyen, pas
plus que les animaux… Vous chamailler pour des choses aussi peu importante est ridicule. Le bon sens et la raison doit prendre le dessus sur l'intolérance et les exigences de certains.
Voilà j'ai dit ce que j'en pensais aussi simplement que possible, car cela devient un peu fatiguant de voir que certain égos n'acceptes pas la raison et le bon sens !
Avec tout mon respect
Cordialement et merci
De : Lapache (Loomio)
Envoyé : mardi 31 janvier 2017 17:08
À : brunolefloch@live.fr ( brunolefloch@live.fr )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
Pourtant pas sorcier de ne pas vouloir refaire les même erreurs
que dans le passer. maintenant si tu penses appartenir à la
famille des machines, ou des robots, fais comme bon te semble.
Mais nous créons là quelque chose de nouveau, pas un reflet déjà
existant. et quoi que tu en dises, tu ne sera jamais indissociable
de la nature. c'est juste du bon sens.
merci
Le 31/01/2017 à 08:04, gousmi (Loomio)
a écrit :
Encore une fois la nature n'est pas constitutionnalisable
(néologisme) et n'a pas à être dans une constitution. Dans la
ddh admettons et même oui mais dans la constitution non… la
constitution n'est pas un programme vertueux c'est un cadre
institutionnel
et j'ai rappelé la définition plus haut qui montre clairement
que la nature n'entre pas dans ce cadre… ou alors il faut
également constitutionnaliser les rapports familiaux, amoureux
ou amicaux puisque cela aussi est incontrolable. donc je vote
non tant
que ce domaine de reflexion sera dans la constitution.
De : Lapache (Loomio) <notifications@framavox.org ( notifications@framavox.org ) (
notifications@framavox.org ( notifications@framavox.org ) ) (
notifications@framavox.org ( notifications@framavox.org ) (
notifications@framavox.org ( notifications@framavox.org ) ) )>
Envoyé : lundi 30 janvier 2017 15:04
À : gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) ) )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
ludo
S'il est une chose avant toutes les autres qui a sa place dans
une constitution, c'est bien la nature au contraire car nous en
sommes indissociable.
Le 30/01/2017 à 11:22, ludo nantes
(Loomio) a écrit :
La Nature pour ma part n'a pas forcement ça place dans une
constitution, mais surtout dans l’esprit commun pour le bien
commun. Pour la Nature il faut faire de l'éducation populaire.
un exemple faire comprendre que les mégots de cigarette ce mes
dans une poubelle et non parterre. UN EXEMPLE
Ludovic
—– Mail original —–
De: “Siegfried (Loomio)”
À: ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) )
( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) )
) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) ) ) )
Envoyé: Samedi 28 Janvier 2017 16:07:20
Objet: [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
“ valeurs, droits et devoirs fondamentaux, communs ” doivent
faire l'objet d'un titre entier et de chapitres respectifs pour
ne pas déborder sur le préambule qui doit se contenter de
quelques lignes.
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Le Floch Bruno Thu 2 Feb 2017 4:14PM
Ce n'est pas à toi que s'adressait ce message Gousmi. je disais que la nature et les animaux ne présentaient aucune menace pour les citoyens, donc ils n'avaient rien a faire dans la constitution mais juste dans la loi ! Faistes tous juste preuve de bon sens
et de raison !
BLF de Nantes
De : gousmi (Loomio) notifications@framavox.org
Envoyé : jeudi 2 février 2017 07:59
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
Je n'ai jamais parlé de menace… je dis juste que vouloir constitutionnaliser une chose sur laquelle nous n'avons aucun pouvoir me parait délirant. d'autre part je ne vois pas de chamailleries juste une discussion, un échange sur 2 avis opposés, ce qui
risque d'être très très fréquemment le cas dans le cadre de la rédaction éventuelle d'une constitution. Et je suis d'accord, le bon sens et la raison doivent prendre le dessus sur l'intolérance et les exigences de certains. N'ayant aucune exigences puisque
je ne propose pas de mettre la nature dans la constitution je ne me sens pas attaqué. Effectivement la raison serait de ne pas vouloir légiférer sur quelque chose qu'on ne peut contrôler. Que l'on décrète que le respect de la faune et de la flore doit toujours
constituer une priorité cognitive aux actes politiques je ne suis pas contre…… tout le reste est ou serait liberticide.
De : Le Floch Bruno (Loomio)
Envoyé : mercredi 1 février 2017 02:55
À : gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
Bonjour, sans avoir fait math sup et si je peux me permettre, je pense qu'une constitution est faite pour protéger le peuple et que les lois sont faites pour vivre avec des règles. Donc je ne vois pas en quoi la nature serait menaçante pour le citoyen, pas
plus que les animaux… Vous chamailler pour des choses aussi peu importante est ridicule. Le bon sens et la raison doit prendre le dessus sur l'intolérance et les exigences de certains.
Voilà j'ai dit ce que j'en pensais aussi simplement que possible, car cela devient un peu fatiguant de voir que certain égos n'acceptes pas la raison et le bon sens !
Avec tout mon respect
Cordialement et merci
De : Lapache (Loomio)
Envoyé : mardi 31 janvier 2017 17:08
À : brunolefloch@live.fr ( brunolefloch@live.fr ) (
brunolefloch@live.fr ( brunolefloch@live.fr ) )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS: validation du sommaire 2e version
Pourtant pas sorcier de ne pas vouloir refaire les même erreurs
que dans le passer. maintenant si tu penses appartenir à la
famille des machines, ou des robots, fais comme bon te semble.
Mais nous créons là quelque chose de nouveau, pas un reflet déjà
existant. et quoi que tu en dises, tu ne sera jamais indissociable
de la nature. c'est juste du bon sens.
merci
Le 31/01/2017 à 08:04, gousmi (Loomio)
a écrit :
Encore une fois la nature n'est pas constitutionnalisable
(néologisme) et n'a pas à être dans une constitution. Dans la
ddh admettons et même oui mais dans la constitution non… la
constitution n'est pas un programme vertueux c'est un cadre
institutionnel
et j'ai rappelé la définition plus haut qui montre clairement
que la nature n'entre pas dans ce cadre… ou alors il faut
également constitutionnaliser les rapports familiaux, amoureux
ou amicaux puisque cela aussi est incontrolable. donc je vote
non tant
que ce domaine de reflexion sera dans la constitution.
De : Lapache (Loomio) <notifications@framavox.org ( notifications@framavox.org ) (
notifications@framavox.org ( notifications@framavox.org ) ) (
notifications@framavox.org ( notifications@framavox.org ) (
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Envoyé : lundi 30 janvier 2017 15:04
À : gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) ) ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) (
gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ( gousmiomar@hotmail.fr ) ) ) )
Objet : [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
ludo
S'il est une chose avant toutes les autres qui a sa place dans
une constitution, c'est bien la nature au contraire car nous en
sommes indissociable.
Le 30/01/2017 à 11:22, ludo nantes
(Loomio) a écrit :
La Nature pour ma part n'a pas forcement ça place dans une
constitution, mais surtout dans l’esprit commun pour le bien
commun. Pour la Nature il faut faire de l'éducation populaire.
un exemple faire comprendre que les mégots de cigarette ce mes
dans une poubelle et non parterre. UN EXEMPLE
Ludovic
—– Mail original —–
De: “Siegfried (Loomio)”
À: ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) (
ludovicjeanson@free.fr ( ludovicjeanson@free.fr ) ) (
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Envoyé: Samedi 28 Janvier 2017 16:07:20
Objet: [projet matrice constitution citoyenne] EN COURS:
validation du sommaire 2e version
“ valeurs, droits et devoirs fondamentaux, communs ” doivent
faire l'objet d'un titre entier et de chapitres respectifs pour
ne pas déborder sur le préambule qui doit se contenter de
quelques lignes.
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( https://framavox.org/ahoy/messages/qBAOsn4WiW3ga7CkOhHOJiEpbBBjKiou/click?signature=ab938931d67244dcdb37d714e9aae7da6f948f2d&url=https%3A%2F%2Fframavox.org%2Fahoy%2Fmessages%2Fd513QjWwHkjVvAzKznh1IcTwcTUd3nH4%2Fclick%3Fsignature%3D51d7bc70c9659cbfa89c0aa15f12151872d68dac%26url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fframavox.org%252Fd%252FVHQFA9YO%252Fen-cours-validation-du-sommaire-2e-version%253Futm_campaign%253Dthread_mailer%2526utm_medium%253Demail%2526utm_source%253Dnew_comment%2523comment-22490%26utm_campaign%3Dnew_comment%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dthread_mailer ( https://framavox.org/ahoy/messages/WENvQKPpldhCTSy2srRyYE8xkuGiDg88/click?signature=cffdfe067163c01abed17fe3142317e1a4e6f325&url=https%3A%2F%2Fframavox.org%2Fahoy%2Fmessages%2FqBAOsn4WiW3ga7CkOhHOJiEpbBBjKiou%2Fclick%3Fsignature%3Dab938931d67244dcdb37d714e9aae7da6f948f2d%26url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fframavox.org%252Fahoy%252Fmessages%252Fd513QjWwHkjVvAzKznh1IcTwcTUd3nH4%252Fclick%253Fsignature%253D51d7bc70c9659cbfa89c0aa15f12151872d68dac%2526url%253Dhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fframavox.org%25252Fd%25252FVHQFA9YO%25252Fen-cours-validation-du-sommaire-2e-version%25253Futm_campaign%25253Dthread_mailer%252526utm_medium%25253Demail%252526utm_source%25253Dnew_comment%252523comment-22490%2526utm_campaign%253Dnew_comment%2526utm_medium%253Demail%2526utm_source%253Dthread_mailer%26utm_campaign%3Dnew_comment%26utm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dthread_mailer )
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)
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)
)
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gousmi Fri 3 Feb 2017 12:30AM
Ah pardon... j ai cru... alors effectivement nous sommes d accord... La nature peut être legiferee et même sans doute le doit mais pas constitutionnalisee. ... enfin selon moi
Télécharger Outlook pour Android ( https://aka.ms/ghei36 )
LauraB · Sat 21 Jan 2017 1:13PM
L'humain fait partie de la nature, la nature fait partie de l'humain, mais on ne peux pas expliquer l'humain sans d'abord expliquer la nature.
Le 21 janv. 2017 13:50, "Lapache (Loomio)" a écrit :
Pas tout à fait, car sans la nature pas d'être humain, et sans
humain pas d'économie.
Le 21/01/2017 à 13:43, Le Floch Bruno
(Loomio) a écrit :
Puisque nous parlons, si j'ai bien tout compris, de redonner le
droit au peuple de décider lui même, alors c'est le citoyen qui
doit être en 1, puis la nature et enfin l'économie. Nous savons
ce que l'économie a fait de ce monde avec l'expérience de plus
de 200 ans. Pour le reste j'attends de lire dans le détail.
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